From Inspiration to Innovation: A Conversation on Forensic Genetics and Mentorship with Dr. Nicole Novroski

Ashley: My name is Ashley Welk. I’m an ISHI Student Ambassador this year for the symposium, and I have the great privilege to talk to Doctor Nicole Novroski today and just give a little interview. So, Nicole, nice to meet you. If you could just give a little introduction about what your work is right now.

Nicole: Sure. So again, I’m Doctor Nicole Novroski. I’m an Associate Professor at the University of Toronto, where I specialize in advanced forensic genetic methodologies, primarily massively parallel sequencing and utilizing chemistries and instrumentation to advance the field. My current interests right now are DNA mixtures and forensic genetic genealogy, as we have two active federal grants that are focusing in those areas.

Ashley: Interesting. I’ve heard a lot recently about investigative genealogy, for sure. So forensic scientists come from a diversity of disciplines and backgrounds. What was your early career or upbringing like that brought you to choosing forensic science as a career.

Nicole: So, it’s a really interesting question because I, for the longest time as a child and then adolescent, really wanted to be an accountant. I loved math, but in grade 11, I wrote a paper on Sir Alec Jeffreys and DNA fingerprinting, and that completely changed my career path, my interests. I was so fascinated at the idea of using science to help people. From there, I started looking at university programs and pivoted completely moving forward, and then went to undergrad for a forensic science degree. But I have to say that it was the aspect of being able to use your brain, but also serve your community that really was the most appealing and what has continued to drive me forward in this field.

Ashley: Interesting. So, as you said before, you had an interest in massively parallel sequencing. How do you see second and even third generation sequencing, integrating into forensics labs within the next five or even ten years.

Nicole: That’s a trickier question, because if we look at the last five years and what’s happened with forensic genetic genealogy or FIGG or whatever people want to call it right now, it’s been explosive in terms of changing our focal points for research, for casework, for everything. And I think it’s really hard to predict what the next big thing will be. I do think that we are going to continue to improve our chemistries, so things will become more sensitive. We’ll be able to do better with the markers we pick, with maybe the stochastic effects that we’re seeing in our testing methods. I think massively parallel sequencing as it is, is a well-oiled machine. I think we’re really starting to get a good handle on how the instrumentation works. Labs are bringing them online. I don’t know that we’re going to see a revolution of new instrumentation in the labs over the next few years, but looking ahead ten years, I’m really excited that we are going to be in an era that is just wildly different from where we are right now. But what that looks like exactly, I have no idea because I’m just along for the ride. I really try to pivot and go with the flow with how the community needs particular things. So, if there’s a gap in knowledge in one area, as a researcher, I really like to try and focus my research efforts in that area to fulfill that gap in knowledge. But yeah, I don’t know. It’s been so interesting already. I’m sure you as a student, over the short time you’ve been a student, you’ve already seen so much change and that must be exciting for you as well.

Ashley: It’s been interesting in my graduate career, learning more about massively parallel sequencing and being able to use more of that instrumentation compared to using the C and genetic analyzers. So, it’s been a cool transition. So, just a little bit back to like, your education, I’ve had many important mentors and teachers throughout my time in school, and I was just wondering, how do you see the value of mentorship and collaboration in forensic science?

Nicole: I have to say that my mentors have drastically shaped who I am now as a professor, as an educator, and then also as a learner. And the value of mentorship from a variety of different individuals with different mentorship styles, I think is really crucial to make you a well-rounded scientist. I think that being able to mentor others, even if it’s just in teaching them a new technique or explaining the science in a way that they better understand is also really invaluable. Education, to me, is fundamental not only in science but also in communicating science to the rest of the world. So, the opportunity to have a media interaction, to share with the public how genealogy works, or how massively parallel sequencing works, or even how DNA mixtures are… Every opportunity to educate, I think, is an opportunity to impact the world or to impact somebody in a very important way. And so, I believe that having a mentor, having a diversity of mentors, constantly learning from people, and appreciating their perspectives because, as I’m sure you’ve already seen in your short time in the field, there are a lot of big personalities and there are a lot of different perspectives within our community.

But it’s that difference that drives us forward, right? Those heated conversations that lead to new ideas. They lead to collaboration. They lead to wanting to develop new approaches to a method that might be stuck in the mud. And I think that all of that is so important and creates the powerhouse of the field of forensic genetics as we see it now. And I’m sure again, you’ve seen there is just this amazing international collaborative network where people from different labs across the world and your mentors, I’m sure, have global collaborators. That is just amazing to see. And we don’t see that in every field. But because forensic genetics is such a small field, and because there are only a handful of labs that are really focused on research, it’s really wonderful to see that those agencies talk to one another and that they’re willing to sit down at the table in order to advance the field, because ultimately, forensic genetics serves the public. It serves our community both locally and globally, and it’s amazing that we are all pushing towards the same goal or really trying to make a difference in the same way.

Ashley: Yeah, that makes sense. So, kind of going off that, do you also feel like it’s important, as you said, to have good mentors, but also for forensic scientists to be mentors to other people? Do you think that’s valuable as well? Or people should push to also try to be a mentor to someone else?

Nicole: I definitely think that mentorship builds character. So I went from being a student right into a faculty position. That was a huge transition for me. I was so lucky to get the position, and I had a very prolific doctoral degree with Doctor Budowle, and that opened so many doors. But that didn’t necessarily prepare me to be a mentor. So, when I entered my role as an assistant professor at the University of Toronto, I was thrown into being a mentor. And I think that there was a learning curve there. But I look at the tremendous impact I’ve had on student lives, the numerous emails I’ve received from students who have highlighted that I’ve shifted their perspective in terms of their career path moving forward. And I have a student here who’s graduated, and she’s now pursuing a doctoral degree in a different area, but she’s still interested in forensic science and still wants to share her work. And so, it’s nice to see that the impact that I had on her academic journey, on her professional journey has resonated so substantially that she’s still showing up here in a community that she’s technically moved on from. And I look at all of those little things in terms of the value of mentorship and having that impact on other people, and it’s so rewarding. But I just have so much gratitude for that. And I thank my mentors, both the really amazing ones and then the ones that maybe taught me harder life lessons for allowing me to become the mentor I am today. So, I do think you learn something from every mentorship opportunity you have, whether you’re the mentor or you’re the mentee. And sometimes you learn exactly who you don’t want to be. And sometimes you take away either skills or traits that you want to then incorporate into how you will lead others. So definitely an important aspect, but I think that’s, that’s something that you, you have to desire as well. So, if you’re like, I don’t want to work with that person, then that might not get you where you need to be.

Ashley: I know you touched on it a little bit, but what do you find most fulfilling about your work as a professor, specifically at the University of Toronto?

Nicole: So, I love learning, and I love watching others learn. I think what I truly get out of the teaching aspect of being a professor or being an instructor at both the undergraduate and graduate levels, is watching the engagement from students and then watching them develop a passion for the material because they see how passionate I am. And let’s be honest, not everybody who takes the class is going to walk away loving forensic biology or loving forensic genetics. But the impact on one student or a handful of students, and then hearing that they want to pursue a graduate degree with me or a graduate degree within the field, is just so impactful. And it reminds me that I am making a difference in their lives, and I’ve encouraged them to want to pursue a career in this field. And that is, I think, the best part of the job. Obviously, there are so many things that are happening in the background every year that I teach. I take that constructive criticism from those student evaluations to make the classes better. Sometimes that means less work, sometimes that means more work. Really trying to pivot in response to the criticism. But again, that allows me to learn from the things that maybe didn’t work as well and then hopefully provide a more invaluable experiential learning environment for the future cohorts.

Ashley: So that makes sense. Did you always have an interest in teaching, or is that something that kind of came later?

Nicole: I did not. I think that when I was wrapping up my doctoral degree, there were a few options. So, students are often faced with, do you want to go into industry, maybe make all the dollars? Do you want to go back into academia, typically in a postdoctoral role, gain more research experience and then evolve into a professor position if that is what you want? Do you want to change fields completely? So many different options that kind of present themselves. And it was very, I think, kismet or happenstance. It was very interesting that the timing happened as I was wrapping up my doctoral degree that my alma mater had an open position for a tenure track faculty member, so that wasn’t my goal. But I was starting to panic, getting close to the end of my degree, wondering what my options were, and I just threw my name in the hat. And then they called. And then they offered it. So, then I was like, okay, this seems like the next best thing. At least I can try it out. And if it doesn’t work. But again, has been just very prolific and very amazing, and I’ve been really fortunate to have so much support from the University of Toronto to grow my program, to improve the curriculum, to provide all of these research opportunities for volunteers and undergrads and graduate students. And they gave me a technician, and my technician is amazing. And I just look at how everything kind of came together really wonderfully. But no, that was not the goal. I to my point earlier, I really just go with the flow. And if I can make a difference in whatever role that I am currently in, I dedicate 100% effort to that.

Ashley: Yeah. Of course. So, what are some characteristics that you possess that you think have brought you to the position that you’re in now?

Nicole: Ooh, I don’t know about that one. Passion is probably the number one. So, I love forensic genetics. I find it so rewarding. I think that the community service aspect of it is what continues to push me into new directions. I always say yes as a consequence of that, because I’m always like, how can I help? Or what difference can I make here? And having that openness and desire to just want to take the next chance, take the next opportunity, I think, is one of the things that maybe sets me apart from some of my colleagues who are like, I’m so tired or I can’t take on any more, and that at times does run me a little thin. So, I’m the editor in chief of a journal. I’m in my role as an associate professor. I also collaborate internationally with a variety of colleagues in different capacities. I sit on a lot of graduate student committees, but that’s just because I want to continue to make that impact. And I think that depending on what people want out of their career, they’re going to say yes and no to different opportunities. And I think I just want to have the most fulfilling career as possible. And therefore I’m just always saying yes. But saying yes has opened way more doors than I ever expected. And I think that’s probably the thing that has really transformed my life.

Ashley: Nice. So, do you look for that same type of passion with people that are working with your lab, or people that you hire or your collaborators? Are you looking for that, those traits as well?

Nicole: Yes and no. So, when it comes to collaborations, sometimes I just need someone who’s smarter than me in the area that we’re doing work and working with them, and then being able to learn from them will be the most valuable aspect of that collaboration, at least for me. When it comes to students or trainees. I think that, yes, I try to look for students who are truly interested in what they’re going to be doing. I don’t think that always taking the highest ranked student is going to be the most beneficial. It’s really, do you want to be here and are you interested in the work? Because the people who are interested in the work are going to work the hardest? I was never a top student in undergrad. I was very much an average student, but somebody took a chance on me and then I proved them right. And then that happened again and again and again. And so, when I look for people to work with, it’s really are we like minded in terms of our desire for the outcome? And do you want to be here? Because the worst thing is working with individuals who just don’t really want to be there, right? It’s just like another chore, another task. And I think that that’s when things drag, and that’s when the research kind of flops, because there’s just not that interest to drive it forward. And I would say to young people, do what you love. Life really is too short and you will be miserable in a field like this where there’s a lot of violence, there’s a lot of darkness there. There’s just sometimes a lot of drama. You have to think about the aspects between law enforcement, the labs and the criminal justice system. Sometimes you watch things happen that just break your heart. So, if it’s not a field that you want to be in, then I would absolutely say, just hit the road and find your true passion. But yeah, I think definitely just having a desire to want to do the work is what I’m always looking for.

Ashley: Yes, that makes sense. I also learned that you’re a reviewer for multiple scientific journals. What was your path to becoming a reviewer, and do you find that work valuable as well?

Nicole: So that actually just happened organically as I was publishing papers. So, as you develop a publication record, the journals will start recognizing you as being an expert in that area. Or the keywords from the journals that your name is attached to will populate and then be made connected to other incoming manuscripts. And so, I was a student at the doctoral level when the requests started coming in. And then those requests just kept getting larger and larger and more diverse. But again, that’s just because my research was taking on a variety of different directions. So, I was doing my main project, but also working on all of these side projects, and my keyword descriptors just continued to grow, and then the diversity of publications that I was asked to participate in continued to grow. I would say that if you are interested in doing ad hoc reviews, the best thing as a student is to talk to your mentor to be like, “hey, if you get a paper and you don’t want to review it, I would really love the opportunity to gain some experience doing that”, because then they can refer you if they decline.

And I think that happens a lot. So, sometimes I get requests that are really outside of my area of expertise and I’ll be like, “I don’t think I should do it, but here are a couple of people who might be much more suited to do so.” And just being very clear about what you want to do is definitely going to open those doors in that capacity. I mean, right now I work as the editor in chief of Forensic Genomics, which is a smaller journal within our field. And that was really interesting because I built an editorial board. And my first question always was, “do you want to be on the editorial board? Do you want to do this? And if you do, great. But if you don’t, is there someone you know who might?” And just again, opening those doors? For some people who might not be my first thought because I don’t know them, but giving them the opportunity to participate if that’s what they’re interested in.

Ashley: Yeah. Very cool. So, do you find that the process of editing and reviewing also improves your own writing when you’re writing papers as well?

Nicole: Definitely. It also humbles me in many ways. So, most manuscripts or most journals you’re reviewing in either a single blind or a double-blind fashion and showing a lot of kindness in your reviewing, I think, is really important. I am a very logical thinker, so sometimes I write comments that are extremely matter of fact. And then I take a minute and I’m like, “Hmm, I would be okay receiving this, but somebody else might be very emotionally upset if they read this comment.” So, I think that I learn to show more compassion and kindness in both my reviews. But then I take a lot away from the different writing styles. And I think about what the what the individual is trying to say and what they truly mean within the context of the manuscript when giving any kind of feedback and then what details might be missing. So, always thinking like as a student, if I was reading this, would I understand it, reading it start to finish? And if I wouldn’t, where are the gaps that the author needs to fill in to make this a little bit more concise and comprehensive to the general reader, and that then translates into my own writing. It also translates into the feedback I give my trainees and students. And again, that kindness of not everybody can write in a particular technical capacity. Also, there are so many different writing styles and being very mindful of that as well. And I’m sure you see that just in your own writing, and maybe how your own writing has evolved over time. But my old mentor had very specific things that he would always highlight in our papers, and I’ve now noticed that I highlight those same things in my trainee papers and I’m like, “Oh no”, but they’re good practice. They are. They are good habits to have, but I’ve turned into my mentor more than I, I guess thought I did initially.

Ashley: I guess that goes back to just the role of mentorship and why it’s so important. So, I read in your bio from the University of Toronto that you got your doctoral degree from the University of North Texas Health Science Center. How has your educational experience in the United States, and how did it compare to your undergraduate experiences in Canada?

Nicole: So that’s tricky because my undergrad experience, like I said, I wasn’t a shiny star. I just kind of survived my undergrad. I was heavily involved in a lot of volunteerisms, so that made my experience very enriching. But I left U of T as an undergrad, not exactly knowing where I was going to go. And then I transitioned to the University of Albany to do my master’s degree. And when I got there, I went to the top of the class. Like I just really loved what I was doing, and it really was reflected in my quality of work. And then I had to apply for an internship. So, then I was applying all over the United States, and that gave me, again, a new opportunity to go somewhere new. I didn’t learn about UNTHSC until I was in my master’s degree, because one of my teachers actually had recommended it as a potential next step for a doctoral degree, but it was amazing. It was incredibly prolific. As I mentioned, Doctor Bruce Budowle was my mentor, and he’s just a legend in this field. And being under his mentorship really did open a lot of doors. I had the opportunity to go and speak on new chemistries and technologies like MPS to other scientists, and I was still a student, so that was really exciting.

We did a lot of different research projects. I really just developed so many new skills, both technically and critically, and then I just kind of got addicted to science. So, it really, really was truly beneficial. It is a little bit strange being a Canadian, both working and studying in the United States, because people are always like, “Oh, you’re just from Canada”, but I’m still an alien. I’m still an international student. And there were still some hiccups when it came to certain opportunities. So, not being able necessarily to work in a federal lab or a state lab simply because I didn’t have the necessary immigration documentation. But that didn’t really stop me. I still was able to find all of these really amazing opportunities, and I still maintain really strong ties with the Center for Human Identification at the Health Science Center. I was able to go back a couple of years ago on sabbatical and do a lot of great work. And like I said, we have two amazing federal grants that despite my position in Toronto, are tied to UNTHSC. So, that’s really wonderful that as much as I moved on from my doctoral degree, I still am able to work collaboratively with that research group and really do impactful things for the community.

Ashley: Yeah, that’s really cool. So, do you have any recommendations for people who are going to make that same transition as you did coming from Canada to the US, or vice versa, just for international students?

Nicole: So, I don’t know so much about going from the United States to Canada. But I do know it happens. So, I’ve seen lots of American students at the University of Toronto. But, being a Canadian going to the United States… For me, I was on an F-1 visa, which I think is the standard visa. And what’s really awesome about the F-1 visa is that you go to school, so you’re doing your graduate degree, and then you have, I think, 12 to 18 months of work opportunity after you finish. And that’s called the OPT (the Optional Practical Training). But that does allow you to gain just some real experience in the field. So, I did mention, you know, as a Canadian, I couldn’t necessarily work in a federal lab, but there were so many other opportunities that were available to me to allow me to gain experience with that OPT visa allowance. I actually went to work for the New York City office of the Chief Medical Examiner, which was just an amazing, amazing experience. I’ve nothing but wonderful things to say about that lab, because it really did change my life. And the colleagues that I made there are friends that I’ll have forever. And it was through that OPT opportunity that I was able to start in that role. And so, I think that Canadians sometimes think that there’s no way that they can go work in the United States or go to school in the United States, or maybe it’s scary or overwhelming, but I think that in forensic genetics, there are just so many opportunities here in the United States that it’s a missed opportunity to not explore them.

And sure, it’s not going to be for everybody. And maybe some people don’t want to leave, but you can always go back. That’s always my answer. Like, you can always go home, but if you don’t take the risk and you don’t try it, you don’t know what you might be missing. And same with my doctoral degree. Again, that opened the opportunity for staying on and staying in the United States. However, I did get that amazing opportunity back in Toronto, so I went back to Canada much sooner in my life than I thought. I definitely thought after my doctoral degree, I’ll get a job. I’ll stay in America forever. I’ll never go back. And then immediately, just again, the opportunity I pivoted back home. But if you look now, I’m still spending a lot of time in the US, still maintaining those collaborations and still have a ton of opportunity here. And it wouldn’t be that way if I had never taken the risk and crossed the border to begin with.

Ashley: Yeah, that’s really cool. So, during your undergraduate and graduate careers, did you attend ISHI at all?

Nicole: Yes. So, I was actually doing the math because they have the little pins and this is my 10th ISHI. So, I never really knew much about ISHI before I started my doctoral degree. I’d heard of the academy meetings, and I had gone only to 1 in 2007, which was actually here in San Antonio. So that’s kind of funny. But when I went to UNTHSC, that lab always comes to ISHI. Like ISHI was the conference to come to. And so, in 2014, once I actually had some data, I had a project I was able to come for my first time and that was in Arizona. And I was just blown away by, as a student, just how much stuff and meals and all of the things that you get coming to this meeting. But then, all of the people that are the writers of the textbooks and the papers that you read, they’re all here too. So, it was just I was starstruck. And John Butler was at the Wednesday Night Social. And when we were in Arizona, we went to this dude ranch thing. But there was this little game where you had to, like, draw your firearm and shoot your opponent.

And I remember shooting John first and being like, “oh my gosh, I just killed John Butler. But oh my gosh, I just had an interaction with him.” And I was so starstruck because he had been the author of all of the textbooks that I had been exposed to up until that point. And so that was so humbling, and I was so grateful to be there. And then I just obviously throughout my doctoral degree kept coming every year. The more my research became, you know, important, the more impact I had at the meeting. So oral presentations, poster presentations, and the Promega team have always just been so incredibly wonderful. And then moving forward once I left my doctoral degree, of course, this is just the conference. And now my students are coming, so it’s kind of gone full circle. I think, over the past (I guess) 11 years, I’ve only missed one. My sister got married. It was a non-negotiable. I couldn’t make it. But, I don’t see myself missing another ISHI for the foreseeable future. Again, unless someone gets married or there’s something else that is a non-negotiable. But, this has always been and will continue to be the conference for me. And the locations. Yeah, you can’t beat them for sure.

Ashley: This is my first ISHI, so I feel like how you did when you were at your first one, very starstruck and just very grateful to be here and meet all these amazing people.

Nicole: Well, make sure you take advantage, because I think sometimes students get shy. They’re like, “Oh, there’s so and so”. Ask your mentor or come ask me. I am always happy to make connections, because I think when you start breaking down those walls, you’re like, “Oh, they’re really cool, or they’re a lot nerdier than I thought.” It just allows you to connect as humans a lot better, rather than allowing that imposter syndrome to keep you away. And then again, it opens up for additional collaborations. Or when you’re done with school, maybe they’ll have a job for you and they already know your name and they know your face. So yeah, let me know if you need me to introduce you to anyone.

Ashley: Yeah, it’s definitely a different experience reading someone’s publication versus actually speaking to them and getting to know them on a personal level. So, I just have a couple more questions to go through. What has been your most exciting or gratifying experience throughout your career so far?

Nicole: I don’t know that I can pinpoint one thing, and the reason for that is that I constantly feel grateful. So, I just received tenure at the University of Toronto, and that was just an incredible accomplishment. But that accomplishment was only achievable because of everything that I’ve done before. That and every little thing has built upon one another. So, I published a paper, and then I was given the opportunity to review for a journal because of that paper. Everything just has led to the next thing. And so, I guess at the end of the day, I would just say that I’m grateful for it all. I’m grateful for all of the opportunities that have been presented to me, that I’ve been able to say yes to, that I’m able bodied to participate in that. I can go work at the bench and perform these ten $15,000 experiments because somebody trusts me to do so. But they trust me to do so because I’ve put in the work to get there. And yeah, I really just find gratitude in all aspects of my life, in all aspects of the history that’s led to this point.

Sometimes I look at my CV and I’m like, “wow, you’re really cool.” And that’s really humbling. At the same time, to think that I’ve been given the opportunity and, very recently, I was just awarded this prize in science at the University of Toronto, and I was telling my family and they’re like, “Oh, just another award.” Like they were so indifferent. Whereas I was like, “this is so amazing. This is such a big deal.” And they’re like, “Well, if you won less things, we’d be more excited for you.” And I know that they were joking, but it really was that reminder that I’m really, really so fortunate to have all of these wonderful things happening for me. And every year it just seems to get better and the opportunities just seem to just get better. Like you asking me to do this interview was such an honor. It was such an honor that of all the people you could pick, you wanted to chat with me. And being really humbled by that recognition, by that selection, I think, is what keeps me so grateful for everything.

Ashley: Yeah. So, as you said, you’ve clearly done so much good work already in the field. What continues to drive you to innovate?

Nicole: The potential for change. So forensic genetics really is a field that directly impacts the community. It directly impacts the criminal justice system. I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago, the International Homicide Investigators Association DNA and Genealogy Summit in Ottawa, and I was there to talk about science. I had the most scientific talk of the entire conference, but then to sit in the audience and to hear these investigators talk about the cases that they had resolved, but how they got there, the challenges, the investigative process, the failures, the bureaucratic complications. It was so humbling. I was so inspired sitting in that audience and listening to these investigators talk about their cases, and that’s what keeps me going. It’s what we do in the lab, and how we continue to improve the science. It’s really going to be impactful in their lives, even if they don’t fully understand. They just, you know, need the DNA profile sometimes, or they just need the genealogical answer. But it makes all the difference in these historical cases. It’s making a huge impact in the violent crime cases that are more current. You can see firsthand the impact that the science has. And I think that that’s what continues to push me to innovate.

How can we make it better? How can we make it easier? How can we make it more impactful? How can we solve more crime? Because without crime, we don’t really have an industry. The history of the world is riddled with crime from the start to now. So, we will always have a job. But are we making the biggest impact that we can make? And so that’s really why I enjoy being a researcher, why I continue to apply for grants, why I continue to have hard conversations, why I try to learn the most from those who don’t understand. So again, talking to investigators and they’re like, “Well, it’d be really great if you could just tell me what to do.” And, I’m like, “Well, how about I teach you a little bit more about what you’re reading, and then you’ll be able to make that decision for yourself?” And trying to fill those gaps in knowledge and then fill those gaps in science. There’s endless possibilities, really. But, I focus where my strengths are, of course, to try and keep things going.

Ashley: I was about to say the same thing. There’s just so much to do and it’s never ending. There’s always another project you can be working on and so many different avenues to explore within forensic genetics. So, thank you for that. I just have one last question for you. If you had a piece of advice that you could give to a graduate student like me, or even undergrads or people in high school that are thinking about pursuing a career in forensic science, what would you say to those students?

Nicole: I would just say, well, I would ask actually, What are your priorities? So, what are what are the things that are most valuable to you? So, I’ve talked about this a little bit already, but for me I always said yes. I said yes to moving across the border to Albany, then to going to Texas, working in New York City. That kept me at times in debt as a student or as a young scholar. I missed weddings and other commitments and lost some friends because I couldn’t show up to things. You know, it impacted my personal relationships. So, if you have a partner, sometimes they’re not going to want to move. Sometimes they’re not going to be able to move depending on their career path. I think that as an individual with your career and your aspirations, it’s really important for you to ask yourself, “what do I want to do?” Or “what do I want out of my life?” And then taking the risks that fall within those priorities or those values. Because, I often have students in my lab or in my office in Toronto that are like, “Okay, I just want to stay with you. I just want to stay here. I just want to stay in Toronto.” Like, okay, but what do you want in five years? Or what do you want in ten years? “I want to do this.” I’m like, “Well, you might not be able to do that if your bubble is Toronto or if your bubble is wherever.”

“What else do you like or what, truly, are your favorite courses? Or would you consider something like this?” And really having that conversation about a person’s personal priorities, values, and aspirations because that looks so different from everyone. I mean, when I was a grad student, there were several other grad students, and I look at where we all are now and it’s vastly different. Doctor Pamela Marshall is here. She was a grad student finishing up when I was starting in the lab. And she’s the Director of their program at Duquesne University doing amazing things. And it’s so wonderful to reconnect with her now that we’ve both left UNT and we’ve both gone off to do other things, and we have the opportunity to collaborate now in a way that I never knew would be possible. And so, that’s always my advice. What do you want out of your life? Because I will do everything that I can to help you at least start along that path and support you along that path. But I cannot tell you what the right decision is because it’s just such a unique decision to make. And, not everybody is just going to want to do the things that I would recommend. So, I always make that a personal decision from the person and then just support them in, in whatever direction they want to go.

Ashley: Yeah, for sure. I think that’s great advice and I’ll definitely keep that in mind moving forward. So, that’s the end of my questions for today. So, I just wanted to give you a huge thank you for agreeing to speak with me and for answering all my questions. And just a shout out to you for being such an innovator in the field and just a good person. So, thank you.

Nicole: Thank you. That’s very kind of you to say. Thank you for saying that and happy to be here. And I look forward to spending time with you this week at the conference. So, thank you.