The Intersection of Podcasting, True Crime, and Forensic DNA: A Conversation with Ashley Flowers

Laura: Ashley Flowers, thank you so much for joining us at the 35th anniversary of ISHI. We are very lucky to have had you present and be on a panel to discuss how evidence turns into narrative, which was a fascinating topic to hear everybody talk about. But before we get into that, maybe you could just give everybody a little bit of your background. Many will know-10 million at least. But for any viewers who don’t know, I’d love to hear a little bit about your story.

Ashley: Yeah, and actually, I don’t talk a ton about it on the show. We try and just like, get to the point where we’re there. I have a pretty unconventional background, so I went to school at Arizona State for Biological Sciences. I worked at Mayo Clinic Hospital. I really thought I wanted to go into some kind of medicine, and thank God I got the opportunity to work with residents. And I was like, “oh, no, not that life for me.” So I really focused on research. And after I graduated, I did some genetics research at Notre Dame where we were putting spider DNA into silkworms. And I eventually then after that, moved to a medical device company where I thought I was going to be doing their research, but it was a startup and quickly, all of a sudden I was in sales before I knew it. And then after that, I did business development for a software company only because when I left the medical device company, I googled companies in Indianapolis that let you bring your dogs to work. So, priorities. And that’s how I found that company. And when I was there, I was on the board of directors for my local Crime Stoppers, which really is what opened this door to where I am now.

I had always been very interested in true crime but was trying to find a way to give back. So, I started at Crime Stoppers and through them they had asked me to do some brand awareness to get people my age to know what it was: that it wasn’t the Scruff McGruff dog, and I partnered with a local radio station. My new volunteer gig was basically like, go in every Monday morning, tell a quick story, and in exchange, they would advertise for Crime Stoppers and it just it just took off. But I got eight minutes, and it was really short, and I couldn’t do the thing I wanted to do. So, after I did that for like a year, I thought, you know, I think if I were to do this in podcast format, it would give me a lot more control over the stories I want to tell, the ways I want to tell them. And it really opens me up to work with other nonprofits and causes that I’m passionate about. And I thought it was still going to be like a local Indianapolis thing, and it turned into this global phenomenon. It’s kind of unreal.

Laura: It is a wild story. And you’re right. I don’t think a lot of people know that detailed background that you just shared.

Ashley: None of it in broadcasting. Everyone’s like, oh, you studied broadcasting? No, no no no no no, my friend.

Laura: No, it did not go that direction. Well, what really changed your mind and drew you… I mean, you are a leading voice now and in a genre that has just blown up. What drew you into what you’re doing now? Like taking it to the next step? I mean, as you said, you were just going to start this out and see how it goes.

Ashley: I think that we were just gathering an audience so quickly, amassing an audience. And I think it goes back to just the responsibility I’ve always felt. So, I felt like I had that responsibility just as a consumer before I ever made anything. And so that really carried with me and kind of guided me as we grew. So, I felt like the more I had, the more I had to do. And it was really part of our mission. I want to change the way people think about consuming and creating true crime content, because I really felt like, and I think I tapped into, was that there were a group of people out there, a large group of people who didn’t want to just hear about the most awful day in someone’s life. They wanted to feel a part of something and feel like they were making a difference. And, you know, so few people get to actually make a difference in the world that I think it’s really meaningful. And I think that even in small ways, we’ve given, you know, someone in their home in Kansas and like me at my computer in Indiana, a way to make a difference in the world. And I think that that really resonated with people.

Laura: It resonates was really going to be my next question. I mean, what resonated with your initial audience, the large audience that you have here now, and how do you maintain that connection over time?

Ashley: I think it’s that we were the first, and I listened to everything before that. I think we were the first podcast that really gave people an action of like, what is the next step? How do I get involved? How do we learn from these stories that we’re telling? Why are we telling them? And maintaining the connection has been one of the most important things I have. I think so much of why we’re successful is not only making that connection between us and fans, but between fans and law enforcement, between law enforcement who listen. And so, we have a whole team. The first employee I ever hired was a fan engagement person, because I wanted to make sure we were we were getting the feedback, we were reading the emails, we were reading the DMs and the comments. And podcasting is so intimate, and I wanted it to still feel like there was such a connection. And so, there’s a whole team now making sure that this isn’t a one way medium, that we’re like actually getting feedback from the listeners.

Laura: And in that sense, not being a one way medium. You talked in the panel about law enforcement. How have you worked with them and integrated that into what you’re doing?

Ashley: It took a minute. Yeah. They were not super jazzed right away to come on my podcast. But, you know, I was very fortunate in that I had put in the work before. Right? I didn’t show up just as a podcaster on day one. I had been working with Crime Stoppers. My local law enforcement. I had made those connections to people. You know, I can’t make someone talk to you. The director is like, I can make the intro and I can let them know that you were here before you had the podcast. You’re in it for the right reasons. And it’s been a slow moving train for the last seven years. You get one person to work with you. You show them you’re not going to burn them. You show them that I’m not looking for the most clickbaity story. I’m not going to just put out all the information because I have it. And, you know, it might dazzle people for a minute. We’re going to really work with them to make sure that the information we’re putting out actually serves the case and will protect a prosecution down the line. And all the reasons, all the things you should be thinking about. And it is it is a tight knit community.

So, you get a couple of those. They’ll vouch for you. You do one case well for them, they’ll give you more. And we’re at the point now where we really have built ourselves and built that brand. And law enforcement comes to us now, because I think they’ve even in their minds, I think for a long-time podcasting, nobody knew what it was. It was so small. And now that they have understood the reach we have. Actually, the case that I’m working in Washington only happened because the detective’s daughter was a Crime Junkie. When I went on tour for The Deck Investigates in 2023, she made her dad go to the show with her, and he’s like, I’m looking around at this auditorium of 3000 people who are young, who are probably not even watching the local news. And I’m like, oh my gosh, this is an untapped resource as we’re thinking about getting information out there. So, as the perception is changing a little bit, as we get those chances to actually get in there and prove ourselves… You know, you got to you got to do the work. You can’t just show up and ask for a case.

Laura: No. And you’re right. Tight knit community. I mean, I’ve seen that over 12 years with this community, forensic DNA. Yeah. Everybody knows everybody. Everybody knows everybody. You need to build that trust first. And it kind of brings up the question about everything you’re doing has such emotional complexity. I mean, there are people behind the stories. So how do you balance that with engaging an audience and sort of, you know, making it okay. It’s a fine line.

Ashley: And what I would say is… I always tell people I’m not perfect. I’m also continuing to evolve and learn. And I think that’s something that anyone who’s doing their craft well, whether you’re a forensic scientist or a storyteller, it’s like you’ve got to look back and say, what did I do right? What did I do wrong? And how do I do it better?

I think part of it is we’ve worked with so many families that I’m not I’m not guessing what they’re feeling or so many times, you know, they’re participating in what we’re doing. And so having their buy in, having their support. When you can get past this story, I think that’s where it goes wrong. It’s when someone says, “this is a story”. And when you can say that this is someone’s life… I’m going to tell a story for 40 minutes. But this 40 minutes was the most important thing that probably ever happened to them in their whole life. And I think that is just an appreciation and a level of empathy you have or you have to develop. And if that’s not part of your work, I don’t think you can do the work responsibly.

Laura: And along the lines of responsibility, I mean, you really have done a lot to raise public awareness. How do you select what cases, you know? How do you direct those resources?

Ashley: It’s a little bit of a game of Tetris. So, you know, very early on in our first couple of episodes it was just what stories stand out to me the most. Which ones do I still have questions about? I’ve been a crime junkie my whole life. Maybe those will capture people’s attention as well. I wanted to do unknown. I wanted to rethink about the way that even the known ones were known. And now, I mean, we have such a huge audience. We have a case suggestion form where we’re getting tens of thousands of suggestions a month. So, we have somebody who just has to comb through those. And actually we’re getting people from law enforcement and families reaching out so much now that those get prioritized. And then our team of original reporters. We’re really trying to focus in on the cases that are underreported, which is hard to find because, it’s this catch 22 of, how do you know about them? If they’re the ones that have 1 or 2 stories or are from communities that people don’t often talk about. So, it’s been this evolution of what did I know? What are people bringing to me? And now it’s like, how do we go find the ones that no one is talking about, but needs to be talked about? And that takes a lot of legwork, which is why we have such a big team now.

Laura: Absolutely. I don’t know how you would do it any other way, and you’re doing so many other things. So, let’s talk about, I mean, not just podcasting. You’re writing books as well. And there’s a different creative process that applies to each. So maybe you can talk a little bit about that.

Ashley: Yeah. The books are really hard.

Laura: Being a writer I understand.

Ashley: Yeah, the books are really hard because, well, a) publishing just takes so long and in my medium, I want to have an idea. I want to make it. I want to put it out into the world in like three weeks. And in publishing, it’s an old business. I have to come up with a story. To me, the storytelling I do in Crime Junkie comes so naturally because I can’t make up what happened. I shouldn’t be making up what happened. I just have to lay out what happened in the most compelling way for people to take action. And that feels like second nature.

Whereas, when I went to sit down and write my fiction novel, I was like, “oh, it could be anything.” The world was my oyster. It was a little paralyzing at first, but then once I got going, it was really fun. And it was such a fun escape for me because, I live and breathe mysteries. I didn’t do this or get into this because true crime was getting big. Like this was just the world that I loved and consumed and wanted to be a part of for my whole life. And it was really nice, but the stakes have gotten so high, right? As we work with law enforcement and family and we’re doing the nonprofit, it was really nice to play in the world of mystery, where the stakes were as low as they could possibly be. There was no one on the other end that I could hurt except for myself and whatever. Right?

Laura: I mean, there’s something very freeing about fiction, for sure.

Ashley: It was lovely.

Laura: Yeah. And a second book I hear right now.

Ashley: So, I just finished the second one. We announced it’s coming out in May of 2025. So, you know, we’ll see. I hope that I can follow up the first one with another New York Times best seller, but I had fun doing it, so that’s what matters.

Laura: You have a large audience. I think they’ll show up. I think they will. Let’s talk a little bit about, like, I’m sure everybody who is interested in what you do can see themselves doing a podcast, and they’d like a little advice. So, I’m not asking you to, you know, bring up the competitors that are going to come next. But what advice would you give somebody who’s interested in it?

Ashley: Well, if it’s specifically podcasting, the advice I would give is don’t wait. Now is the time. The landscape is getting more and more competitive, and the landscape is moving more and more to be like TV, where you have these big networks. It’s getting harder for small independents to get contracts where they’re actually going to be able to financially support themselves in their work. So, the longer someone waits, the harder it’s going to be to get in. So move quick and then have some kind of niche. When I started Crime Junkie, I did it because I was trying to make this show that I kept waiting for someone to make. I was so specific of, like, I love the two people because I love having those moments of conversation, but I don’t need two people to tell the story because I don’t really understand why you’re there. And I just want someone to be me, be the audience. And I was like, it just seems like surely someone’s going to make it. And I waited year after year, and I got to the point where I was like, why don’t I make the show? That format doesn’t exist. And there is so much competition right now that the other advice I would give is you have to have a niche. You have to make something that doesn’t exist in the world, like just creating carbon copies of things. You’re not going to stand out in a meaningful way.

Laura: Well, and along those lines, your fans are extremely passionate. And so, I’m sure they want to have a role in shaping the content that you put out there. How do you manage that with such a big audience?

Ashley: Again, it’s through the fan engagement team, the suggestion form, talking to them. And I think we’re all learning together too, right? And I’ve seen the way that they even think about the true crime, and it went from the things that they wanted me to talk about were the biggest cases that had been done over and over. And now, the things I get are about cases from their hometown. They’re like, this girl went missing when I was in high school, and I haven’t thought about it, but, I looked it up and she’s still missing and now I can’t stop thinking about her. And so, it’s really cool how they and I have grown together in what we’re making and how we’re making it.

Laura: Yeah. What do you think drives the fascination with the genre now that you’ve been doing this for so long?

Ashley: I mean, I think there’s something in human nature that we want to solve puzzles. Our brain just can’t compute when something doesn’t fit or we don’t have an answer. And so, I think that getting answers really drives us, at least for me, to solve the puzzle. And I think that’s why I’m also so drawn to unsolved cases because there’s still a puzzle to be solved.

Laura: Absolutely. Well, I think you had some beautiful answers on the panel because of course, things came up about ethical challenges or that are going to necessarily with the work that you’re doing. How do you manage that constant learning process?

Ashley: We’ve been working on our own standards and ethics guide for the last year. And it took so long, because it would be so great if it were black and white. But there is so much gray in between. And so, it is this constant learning process. And I think if I can boil it all down, the closest I can get to an easy answer is why? Why are you in it? Why are you creating it? And if you can’t answer that in a meaningful way, if it’s just because you want money and it’s all the wrong reasons and you’re going to fumble everything ethically in between.

Laura: Absolutely. If you don’t have a passion for it and you’re doing it for the right reasons, I don’t see how it can work. And obviously you’ve tapped into something because it sounds like you have a partnership with Sirius and it’s going to be a 24/7 channel. So that’s a lot of content. How are you working that out?

Ashley: So, I do a new show called Crime Junkie AF, Ashley Flowers, where we do one episode a month, where I’ve been interviewing people who either lived true crime or work in the space, and who are experts. So that’s been kind of our new content that’s on the radio. But then a lot of what we’re putting on is this backlog of content. We have, you know, a ton of weekly shows, a ton of limited series. And so, we’re kind of just introducing the content that’s been in podcasting now to a whole new audience in radio, which has been beautiful and is a lot more manageable than having to create 24/7 new true crime content. I don’t know that I could do that.

Laura: Well, and it’s interesting, other podcasters I’ve talked to have made the move. They felt a true freedom in partnering with them, that it gave them the opportunity to say exactly what they wanted and do more. I saw your interview at Cannes. I thought that was interesting, but I was also wondering, how do you manage that? You are traveling all the time and you’re creating content and writing. Is there going to be a third book?

Ashley: Oh, there’s definitely a third book. I love writing. Now my daughterss two and a half, I would also love to do children’s mysteries. There’s tons of young adult stuff, but, I want new Nancy Drew. What does new Nancy Drew look like? So, I would love to do something like that. A lot of the stuff that we’re doing is going to start transitioning to TV and film. And I actually was just out filming what I hope is our first documentary this last week. So, I think there’s more and more stuff and I don’t know, there’s not enough hours in the day, but I try and find it. Some of them are 18 hour days, but I’m fueled because I just love it. I love what I do, so they don’t feel like long days.

Laura: Well, you can see that energy and passion and I think that comes through. Anything we’ve missed, anything new that’s coming up? Can you share any more about the documentary? Probably not.

Ashley: It’s a case that we’re doing out of Washington. I partnered with a company called Words and Pictures. They’re incredible. The stuff that they’re making is truly unbelievable. I feel really, really lucky. So, we’re gonna, you know, put together some of what we shot, go out and try and sell it. I’m still learning TV and film is the same way as publishing. Everything just takes so stinkin long. So, I will always be in podcasting. I will never go anywhere. Crime Junkie will be around till the day I die.

Laura: There’s something nice about having something that is fast and easy. And yes, you’re right, publishing is a turtle. I guess my last question would be, was there anything surprising today? I mean, you were speaking to an audience that was forensic DNA professionals exclusively. Anything that came up in the questions that people asked you or even the conversations they were having that was surprising.

Ashley: I was surprised at how many people were listeners. Like, truly. I said, when I walked in, sometimes I feel like I sneak into these rooms because they’re places that I would dream of being in, like a forensic science conference. Are you kidding me? Like, as a kid, I would be losing my mind. And so, if I take a moment to look around, I’m like, they don’t know that I don’t belong here. And I always feel like, oh, I don’t know. I think I’m stuck in like 2017, Ashley where they’re like, oh, it’s just a little podcast and they’re going to think what I’m doing isn’t serious. So to have so many people come up afterwards and be like, “I listen to you while I’m in the lab and I’m processing evidence.” It was just wild to me.

Laura: Oh, that’s really good to hear. Well, we really appreciate you taking time to come out. I know there’s so many commitments that you have. And this was wonderful. I think everyone really enjoyed it. So, thank you. Thank you so much.